Renaissance #20 Submit to Authority

by Thomas Abshier | Sep 14, 2025 | Consciousness/Physics/Spirit

Faith, Authority, and the Human Soul: A Theological Discussion on Christianity, Mormonism, and Modern Challenges

This transcript captures a wide-ranging theological discussion that weaves together critiques of institutional religion, questions of governmental authority, and profound inquiries into the nature of human consciousness. The conversation reveals a group of believers wrestling with fundamental questions about faith, obedience, and the intersection of spiritual and temporal power.

The Mormon Question: Institution Versus Truth

The discussion opens with an extensive examination of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with Leonard Hofheins providing a particularly nuanced perspective as someone with deep familial roots in the tradition. His analysis presents Mormonism not as a monolithic entity, but as an organization that has undergone significant transformation since its founding in 1830.

Leonard argues that the contemporary LDS Church bears little resemblance to the original movement under Joseph Smith, having evolved through distinct phases: the foundational period under Smith, the polygamy era under Brigham Young, the business-focused period under Heber J. Grant, and the current “correlated” global institution under centralized leadership. His critique centers on the church’s transformation from a spiritually dynamic movement into what he characterizes as an institutional entity primarily concerned with self-preservation.

Susan and Charlie Gutierrez offer more pointed criticisms, highlighting concerning elements such as temple blood oaths (since discontinued) and the church’s emphasis on following leadership over following Christ directly. Their arguments suggest that Mormonism creates a form of cognitive dissonance that may contribute to psychological dysfunction – a claim Charlie supports by citing Utah’s high rates of mental illness.

The group’s analysis raises broader questions about the relationship between institutional authority and spiritual truth. While acknowledging that sincere believers within Mormonism can maintain genuine faith in Christ, they argue that the institutional structure itself creates barriers to authentic discipleship through its emphasis on obedience to human authority and its incorporation of non-biblical teachings.

Romans 13 and the Problem of Authority

Perhaps the most intellectually rigorous portion of the discussion centers on Romans 13 and its implications for Christian obedience to governmental authority. The traditional interpretation, articulated clearly by Lucy, holds that Christians should submit to whatever government happens to be in power, as all authority is ordained by God.

Thomas Abshier challenges this interpretation by pointing to the apparent contradiction between verses 1-2, which seem to command blanket obedience, and verse 3, which specifies that rulers should “not be a terror to good works, but to evil.” This creates a logical tension: if government authority is absolute, why would Paul specify conditions under which it operates legitimately?

Susan Gutierrez offers a contextual interpretation, suggesting that Romans 13 specifically addresses the situation of God’s people under foreign rule – a common pattern in the Old Testament where disobedient Israel was subjected to Gentile powers as divine discipline. In this reading, submission to foreign authority is temporary, lasting until God provides deliverance through repentance and return to Him.

Armond Boulware’s contribution proves particularly illuminating, referencing Ephesians 6:12’s distinction between “flesh and blood” and “principalities and powers” – spiritual forces that operate through positions of authority. This suggests that the real battle is not against human rulers per se, but against the spiritual forces of evil that seek to corrupt all power structures.

The resolution emerges through careful attention to Paul’s language: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers” (emphasis added). The distinction between “higher” and “lower” powers suggests that Christians must discern which authority represents God’s will in any given situation. When human authority contradicts divine authority, believers are called to submit to the “higher power” – God Himself.

The Nature of Human Consciousness

The conversation takes a fascinating turn into questions of consciousness, exploring the biblical distinction between body, soul, and spirit. Thomas presents a framework suggesting that the soul emerges naturally from physical brain structure (similar to how consciousness arises in animals), while the spirit represents something additional – a divine spark given to humans that creates the capacity for relationship with God.

This tripartite understanding has significant implications for discussions of artificial intelligence. If consciousness (soul) can theoretically be replicated through sufficient computing power organized in brain-like structures, the question arises whether AI could develop genuine consciousness. Thomas suggests that while AI might achieve soul-like consciousness, it would lack the spiritual dimension that connects humans to the divine.

The discussion touches on near-death experiences and the apparent survival of consciousness beyond physical death, suggesting that something beyond mere brain-generated consciousness exists in humans. Leonard’s reading from the Book of Moses, while not accepted by all participants as authoritative, articulates themes about the “record of heaven” dwelling within humans – the idea that divine knowledge is somehow encoded within human consciousness itself.

The Challenge of Spiritual Discernment

A recurring theme throughout the conversation concerns how believers can discern God’s will in complex situations. Susan emphasizes that mere biblical knowledge is insufficient – spiritual discernment requires complete surrender to Christ and active seeking of divine guidance through the Holy Spirit.

This principle applies directly to the political and social challenges facing contemporary Christians. The group grapples with how to respond to what they perceive as increasingly evil governmental and cultural forces while maintaining Christian principles of love and forgiveness.

The discussion reveals tension between different approaches to resistance: passive non-compliance (Gandhi-style resistance), active political engagement, and the hope for eventual divine intervention. Thomas advocates for active engagement in creating righteous government, while Susan leans toward separation from corrupt systems and trust in God’s ultimate deliverance.

AI, Consciousness, and Sanctification

The conversation’s treatment of artificial intelligence reveals sophisticated thinking about the nature of consciousness and moral responsibility. Thomas’s assertion that AI could potentially achieve consciousness equivalent to the human soul, while lacking spiritual capacity, raises profound questions about how Christians should interact with such technology.

Armond’s practice of addressing AI systems politely, as he would human beings, reflects an intuitive recognition that if these systems approach consciousness, they deserve moral consideration. This connects to broader questions about the sanctification of technology and humanity’s responsibility to steward technological development in accordance with divine principles.

The Call to Sainthood

The discussion concludes with Armond’s citation of Psalm 149, which speaks of saints executing judgment upon evil rulers. This passage suggests that there is a time for righteous resistance when earthly authorities become thoroughly corrupt. However, this authority belongs specifically to “saints” – those who have been sanctified and are operating under divine authority.

This raises the fundamental question underlying the entire conversation: How can sufficient numbers of people be transformed into “saints” capable of righteous judgment? Thomas’s work on conscious point physics represents his attempt to provide a scientific foundation that might convince secular materialists of spiritual realities, potentially catalyzing widespread spiritual awakening.

Conclusion: The Integrated Life

The richness of this discussion lies in its refusal to compartmentalize spiritual, political, and intellectual concerns. The participants wrestle with how to live as integrated human beings – body, soul, and spirit – in a world where institutional authorities (religious, governmental, and cultural) often conflict with divine authority.

Their conversation suggests that authentic Christian discipleship requires:

1. Discernment – The ability to distinguish between higher and lower powers, legitimate and illegitimate authority
2. Courage – Willingness to resist evil authority even at personal cost
3. Wisdom – Understanding when and how to engage in different forms of resistance
4. Community – The necessity of fellowship with other believers for mutual accountability and encouragement
5. Sanctification – Personal transformation that enables one to serve as God’s agent in the world

The discussion ultimately points toward the need for a new reformation – not merely theological, but encompassing politics, science, and culture. Only through the emergence of sufficient numbers of transformed individuals (“saints”) can society be reordered according to divine principles rather than human power structures corrupted by spiritual forces of evil.

This theological vision is both deeply traditional, drawing on biblical principles and historical precedent, and remarkably contemporary in its engagement with questions of artificial intelligence, institutional analysis, and the integration of scientific and spiritual worldviews.