When God Gives Nations What They Deserve

Romans 13, Righteous Rebellion, and the Holocaust Question

Renaissance Ministries | March 25, 2026

A Fellowship Discussion Essay from a Conversation Between Thomas Abshier and Charlie Gutierrez

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”
— Romans 13:1

“We ought to obey God rather than men.”
— Acts 5:29

Introduction: The Tension in Romans 13

There is a tension in Romans 13 that has troubled Christians for two millennia.

The first verse says all government is ordained by God — that the powers that be are established by His authority. The second verse says that rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil — implying that government exists to punish wrongdoing and reward righteousness.

But what happens when these two statements collide? What happens when government is a terror to good works? When rulers demand evil? When the powers ordained by God become instruments of oppression?

This essay explores that tension through a conversation between Dr. Thomas Abshier and Charlie Gutierrez — a conversation that wound through AI development, physics theories, Susan’s essay on Romans 13, and ultimately arrived at the question that haunts every theodicy: “If there really was a God, how could He allow such a mess?”

And specifically: “Where was God during the Holocaust?”

Part I: Susan’s Insight — Gentile Rulers as Discipline

Susan Gutierrez wrote an essay on Romans 13 that Thomas described as “revolutionary.” Though he only read a portion, the core insight was striking:

God puts unbelievers in authority over believers as discipline for their unrighteousness.

This is not a new idea — it permeates the Old Testament. When Israel turned from God:

He gave them into the hands of the Midianites (Judges 6)
He sent them into Babylonian exile (2 Kings 25)
He allowed the Romans to destroy the Temple (70 AD)

The pattern is consistent: When God’s people rebel, He allows — even ordains — oppressive government as a corrective.

This reframes Romans 13:1 (“the powers that be are ordained of God”) not as a blanket endorsement of all government, but as an acknowledgment that God uses even wicked rulers for His purposes — including the purpose of disciplining His wayward people.

The Logical Tension

But this creates an apparent contradiction with Romans 13:3-4:

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good.”

If God ordains evil rulers to discipline His people, how can Paul say rulers are “not a terror to good works”?

Thomas resolved this by recognizing that Paul is describing two different domains:

The domain of discipline — where God permits evil government to oppress rebellious believers
The domain of the Kingdom — where righteous government rewards good and punishes evil

These are not the same situation. One describes what God does when His people rebel. The other describes what God wants — the ideal of government fulfilling its proper function.

The tension exists because we live in a fallen world where both realities coexist. We are simultaneously:

Under governments that may be instruments of divine discipline
Called to work toward governments that reflect God’s righteousness

Part II: The Resolution — Righteous Rebellion

If God ordains all government, does that mean we must obey all government commands?

No.

Thomas articulated the resolution:

“You don’t obey any of the unrighteous laws. You just act righteously all the time, and you are persecuted because of your disobedience. But you’re the Daniel in the lion’s den. You’re the Christian who stopped the slaughter in Rome. If you’re going to disobey the law, then be prepared to suffer for it. Suffer for righteousness.”

The Principle of Martyrdom

The key insight is that righteous disobedience comes with a cost — and that cost is itself redemptive:

“By your suffering, by your martyrdom, you’re serving the kingdom of God. The badness of the state as it is now is gradually overtaken by the goodness of people who are standing against it and making themselves flaming symbols of martyrdom and righteousness.”

This is how evil government is transformed:

Believers refuse to participate in unrighteousness
They suffer persecution for their refusal
Their suffering awakens the conscience of the nation
The pressure of many righteous people saying “No” eventually changes the government

Marbury v. Madison (1803)

Charlie introduced a constitutional principle that parallels this theological insight. In Marbury v. Madison, Chief Justice John Marshall wrote:

“A law repugnant to the Constitution is void.”

And crucially — such a law is void ab initio (from the beginning), not merely after a court declares it void. You don’t have to wait for official permission to recognize that an unjust law has no moral authority.

Charlie observed:

“You have to know the principles. You have to know the Constitution. And when a law repugnant to the Constitution presents itself for enforcement right in front of you, you treat it as if it’s void — it doesn’t exist.”

The same applies to God’s law. When human government commands what God forbids — or forbids what God commands — the believer must obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29). The human law is void ab initio in the moral sense.

The Price of Liberty

But this comes with a cost:

“There will be hell to pay. If it’s actually a law and there is an enforcement apparatus, the government’s active in the enforcement — there will be the penalty associated. It is martyrdom. And that is the price of liberty — that you sacrifice yourself so that others can be free.”

Part III: The Political Dimension — Tolerance as False God

The conversation touched on a crucial political dynamic that connects to the theological framework.

The Gullible Center

In any society, there are:

True believers on the right — committed to traditional values and God’s standards
True believers on the left — committed to progressive ideology
The independent center — flexible, persuadable, often without a strong moral foundation

Elections are determined by the center. The question is: which direction will they swing?

The Idol of Tolerance

The contemporary left has elevated tolerance to the status of a god. In this framework:

Righteousness becomes “intolerance”
Sin becomes a protected category
Calling anything wrong becomes the only wrong
The highest virtue is affirming whatever anyone wants to do

When tolerance is worshipped as the supreme value — above truth, above righteousness, above God’s standards — then the center is seduced into accepting progressively more unGodly positions.

They don’t see themselves as abandoning God. They see themselves as being more loving than those rigid religious people who judge others. They are worshipping at the altar of tolerance while calling it compassion.

The Consequence

This is precisely the situation that triggers Romans 13’s discipline dynamic:

“When tolerance is worshipped as the standard above the righteousness of Godly standards, then unGodliness is tolerated — and God turns His wrath on the nation by giving them Gentiles to rule over them, and causing them to suffer.”

The suffering under oppressive government is not arbitrary divine cruelty. It is the natural consequence of national apostasy — and it is intended to be corrective.

The boot on the neck is meant to make us look up.

Part IV: The Holocaust Question

This brings us to the question that haunts every discussion of theodicy:

“Where was God during the Holocaust?”

Charlie’s Jewish friend — a lawyer in San Francisco — asked this question personally. For her, it wasn’t philosophical abstraction. It was family. It was memory. It was accusation.

The Assumption Behind the Question

As Charlie observed:

“My friend, the famous psychologist in San Francisco, the lady who asked who said that to me, and everyone else who says something similar, assumes that the oppressed are innocent.”

This is the hidden premise. The question assumes that the victims were entirely innocent — that they had done nothing to warrant such suffering — and therefore God is either impotent or malevolent.

But the biblical framework doesn’t support this assumption — at least not at the national/civilizational level.

The Jewish Disobedience

Charlie pointed out several dimensions:

“Anyone who reads the Old Testament, which is their book, would never trust government to lay down their arms — and that’s what the Jews did. That’s a very unrighteous thing, among many other unrighteous things.”

The Jews of Europe:

Trusted the state rather than God
Disarmed themselves despite their own Scriptures warning against trusting human government
Had largely assimilated into secular European culture
In many cases, had abandoned the faith of their fathers

This is not to say that individual Holocaust victims “deserved” their fate — many were children, many were pious, many were simply ordinary people caught in a horror not of their making. But at the national/civilizational level, there had been a turning away.

The German Apostasy

But the same analysis applies even more forcefully to the perpetrators.

Nazi Germany was a post-Christian civilization. The German churches — with noble exceptions like Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church — had largely accommodated liberalism, nationalism, and eventually National Socialism.

When a “Christian” nation loses its faith, it doesn’t become neutral. It becomes capable of horrors that pagan societies rarely achieve. The Holocaust was not the product of primitive barbarism — it was the product of advanced civilization that had abandoned its Christian foundation.

Both the victims and the perpetrators had turned from God. And God gave both peoples rulers they did not want.

The Christian Complicity

And we must add: where was the Church?

Some Christians rescued Jews. Some spoke out. Some died. But most did not. Most accommodated. Most went along.

The Holocaust happened in part because the Church had already lost its fire. The civilization that perpetrated genocide was one that had abandoned biblical faith — on both sides of the victims and perpetrators.

Part V: Toward a Two-Sentence Answer

Charlie has been searching for a brief answer to give his Jewish friend. Something that doesn’t require a seminary course. Something that acknowledges the horror while pointing toward meaning.

Here is one attempt:

The Two-Sentence Answer (Attempt 1)

“God didn’t cause the Holocaust — humans did, exercising the terrible freedom He gave us. But He allowed it as He has always allowed the consequences of turning from Him — not to destroy, but to awaken us to our need for Him.”

The Two-Sentence Answer (Attempt 2)

“God was where He always is when His people suffer under oppressive government — watching, grieving, and waiting for them to turn back to Him. The Holocaust was not God’s will; it was the fruit of civilization — Jewish and German — that had turned from His ways.”

The Two-Sentence Answer (Attempt 3)

“When nations abandon God, He gives them the rulers they deserve — that’s not cruelty, it’s the only way to wake people up. The Holocaust happened because both German and European Jewish civilization had turned from God; it was the terrible fruit of apostasy on both sides.”

The Two-Sentence Answer (Attempt 4 — Charlie’s Approach)

“God hides Himself so we can freely choose — and we chose terribly. But even in Auschwitz, He was there: in the righteous Gentiles who risked everything, in the faith that sustained prisoners, and in the survival of His people against all odds.”

The One-Sentence Answer (Blunt)

“God allowed the Holocaust for the same reason He allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem — because nations that abandon Him eventually face the consequences, and those consequences are meant to bring them back.”

Part VI: The Bertrand Russell Exchange

The conversation ended with a revealing anecdote about Bertrand Russell, the famous atheist philosopher.

Someone asked Russell: “What will you say if you die and find yourself standing face to face with God?”

Russell replied: “I’m going to say, ‘You sure did a good job of hiding Yourself.'”

Thomas’s response was immediate:

“And God will say: ‘You did a very good job of not looking for Me.'”

This exchange captures the heart of the matter. God is hidden — but not absent. He can be found by those who seek Him with their whole heart (Jeremiah 29:13). The problem is not God’s hiddenness; it’s our refusal to look.

The Holocaust happened in a civilization that had stopped looking. The churches had accommodated. The Jews had assimilated. The intellectuals had declared God dead. And into that vacuum, evil rushed.

God didn’t hide during the Holocaust. We did — from Him.

Part VII: The Path Forward

For Individuals

The application for individuals is clear:

Know God’s standards — Study Scripture, understand righteousness
Refuse to participate in unrighteousness — Even when government commands it
Accept the cost — Martyrdom is the price of liberty
Trust God’s purposes — Even in suffering, He is working

For the Church

The application for the Church is equally clear:

Recover the fire — A lukewarm church cannot resist evil
Speak truth — Even when it’s unpopular
Disciple the nations — The center must be grounded in Godly principles
Be the conscience of the nation — When the Church is silent, evil flourishes

For the Nation

The application for the nation follows:

Reject the idol of tolerance — Tolerance of sin is not a virtue
Ground the center in truth — Independents must have a moral foundation
Expect consequences — Nations that turn from God will suffer
Repent and return — The discipline is meant to be corrective, not final

Part VIII: Discussion Questions for the Fellowship

On Romans 13

How do you understand the tension between Romans 13:1 (all government is ordained by God) and Acts 5:29 (we must obey God rather than men)?
Susan’s insight is that God puts unbelievers in authority over believers as discipline. Does this interpretation help resolve the tension? What are its implications?
When is civil disobedience justified? How do we know where to draw the line?

On the Holocaust

The essay argues that the Holocaust was the fruit of apostasy — both German and Jewish. Is this analysis fair? Does it risk blaming victims?
Charlie’s friend assumes the oppressed were innocent. How do we distinguish between individual innocence and national/civilizational guilt?
Which of the “two-sentence answers” offered seems most helpful? Can you improve on them?

On Tolerance as Idol

The essay argues that “tolerance” has become a false god in contemporary culture. Do you agree? How does this manifest?
How do we distinguish between godly compassion and ungodly tolerance? Where is the line?
What is the role of the “independent center” in national righteousness? How can they be grounded in truth?

On Personal Application

Have you ever had to disobey human authority to obey God? What happened?
How do you respond when someone asks, “Where was God during [tragedy]?”
What would righteous rebellion look like in our current political/cultural context?

A Closing Prayer

Lord God, we confess that we live in a nation that has turned from You. We have tolerated what You hate. We have called evil good and good evil. We have trusted in government more than in You.

Forgive us. Awaken us. Give us courage to stand against unrighteousness, even when it costs us.

We pray for those who suffered in the Holocaust — for the victims, for the survivors, for their descendants who still ask “Where were You?” Help us give answers that are honest, humble, and hopeful.

We pray for our nation — that the independent center would be grounded in Your truth, that the idol of tolerance would be cast down, that righteousness would exalt us again.

We pray for ourselves — that we would be Daniels in the lion’s den, willing to disobey human commands that violate Your law, willing to suffer for righteousness.

And we pray for the day when every government will reflect Your justice, when rulers will truly reward good and punish evil, when Your kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven.

Until that day, give us fire. Give us courage. Give us wisdom.

In Jesus’ name, Amen.

“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
— Psalm 9:17

“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
— 2 Chronicles 7:14

Source Material: Conversation between Thomas Abshier and Charlie Gutierrez, March 25, 2026; Susan Gutierrez’s essay on Romans 13; Marbury v. Madison (1803); previous fellowship discussions on theodicy and the Holocaust.

Related Christos Content: “Where Was God? The Holocaust, Theodicy, and the Question That Won’t Go Away” (Addendum essay); “When Belief Confronts Belief: The Otranto Martyrs, Iran, and the Fire We Need”; Christos AI Theological Grammar.

Appendix: Two-Sentence Answers — Summary

Version	Answer
Theological	“God didn’t cause the Holocaust — humans did, exercising the terrible freedom He gave us. But He allowed it as He has always allowed the consequences of turning from Him — not to destroy, but to awaken us to our need for Him.”
Presence	“God was where He always is when His people suffer under oppressive government — watching, grieving, and waiting for them to turn back to Him. The Holocaust was not God’s will; it was the fruit of civilization that had turned from His ways.”
Consequences	“When nations abandon God, He gives them the rulers they deserve — that’s not cruelty, it’s the only way to wake people up. The Holocaust happened because both German and European Jewish civilization had turned from God; it was the terrible fruit of apostasy on both sides.”
Hope	“God hides Himself so we can freely choose — and we chose terribly. But even in Auschwitz, He was there: in the righteous Gentiles who risked everything, in the faith that sustained prisoners, and in the survival of His people against all odds.”
Blunt	“God allowed the Holocaust for the same reason He allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem — because nations that abandon Him eventually face the consequences, and those consequences are meant to bring them back.”

The Societal and Personal Price of a Morally Lukewarm Majority